Posts by Joe Grundy

384

Atheism 2.0

by Qcmbr in

apologies if this has been posted before or even discussed.. this ted talk gets at the heart of what atheism is missing and my wife an di discussed this for a long time last night.

in short religion provides a framework for meeting, for ritual, for art, education and sociality.

without this framework atheism can seem lonely harsh and certainly disorganised (the general idea that education and culture can replace the gap may well be true but without a formal structure the route to personal mental fulfillment is somewhat piecemeal and patchwork.

Joe Grundy

I am an atheist - that is to say I don't believe in (or accept the existence of) a God, or gods, or 'inspired' writings. I do accept that belief in some sort of supernatural beings can bring comfort to people, whether they're 'christians', 'muslims', 'buddhists', or whatever, and I acknowledge and accept that their beliefs are important to them.

I have come to accept that there is no point whatsoever in challenging those who hold 'religious' beliefs - whether it is the Bangkok hooker who lights incense sticks at the shrine at the entrance to a soi where she's going to ply her trade or a pilgrim to Jerusalem who believes that they're going to see a 'holy' site.

There is no reason for me to discuss anything to do with religion with those who practise it. Their religion (whatever it may be) precludes them from exercising rational thougt. Many people who believe in religion seem to me to be able to 'shut off' part of their brain.

I have, in the past, tried to have rational discussions with JWs. I have tried to have rational discussions with members of my family (evangelist fundies). There is no point, it is a waste of my time and theirs. We all smile, mouth platitudes, and walk away to our own lives.

35

My father is dying

by peridotgreen in

jw
friends

my father, who has alzheimers, is dying now (he's 85).

i saw him today - he weaves in and out.

hasn't recognized me for a long time but was usually glad for the company.

Joe Grundy

My father died on my birthday (12 July) 2010 after a few years of suffering Alsheimers. I was in Cyprus and didn't see him in his last days, nor did I go to his funeral (for practical reasons).

It was pitiful to see my Dad in his last few years. He was always very sharp mentally (he loved to do algebra problems as a hobby) but once my Mum died a few years before he just 'switched off' and became mentally and physically incapable. He was brought up with a strong christian belief (PB not JW) but to be honest I'm not quite sure just how much he really believed it (WWII experiences and losing his first wife at 25 must have dented his faith). I hope, for his sake, he did.

Two years before he died my two brothers and I went to see him in the nursing home (it wasn't in the UK and took some coordination). We took with us a photo album compiled of all the old photos we could get hold of and spent hours going through it with him. It was a depressing experience - there wasn't much there.

By coincidence, the afternoon we visited the nursing home was the afternoon the local vicar came to hold a 'service'. By further coincidence, he was a Welshman from the area my Dad grew up. My last 'real' memory of my Dad was that afternoon, his three sons holding his hand (he was in a wheelchair) as we sang old Welsh hymn tunes. I thought I saw him smile but I can't be sure. That was the last time I saw him.

I am an atheist, but I hope my Dad died clinging to his beliefs - otherwise so much of his life would have been wasted. I think he looked forward to an eternal life straight after death and if that sustained him, good for him. I don't know how he reconciled in his mind (but I bet this had been on his mind for man, many years) the question of whether he would be his first wife and true love, or with my mother, his second wife. Perhaps this was one of the questions best not pondered too long.

periodtgreen, you have my sympathy. I said goodbye to my Dad a couple of years before he died. Even then, he wasn't the Dad I knew and even then I chose to remember him as he had been. Be thankful for the good memories - they will outlive the bad.

Regards.

42

SURVEY SAYS: Please take my quick survey

by Terry in

i thought it would be interesting and informative to create the following survey.. please cut and paste it in the 'post' section and type in your reply under each question.. .

let the survey begin 10 questions.

1.rate on a scale from 1-10 the postive impact (10 being absolutely positive) of jehovahs-witness.net on your life.. .

Joe Grundy

1.Rate on a scale from 1-10 the postive impact (10 being Absolutely Positive) of Jehovahs-Witness.net on your life.

10 - a useful source of information in two main ways. First, the very informed academic discussions (with checkable sources) from which I have learned a great deal. Second, the personal experiences which have reinforced my belief that JWs are a sick and evil cult. More generally, a reinforcement of my view that most people are humane, 'good', empathetic and open-minded.

2.Rate on a scale from 1-10 the negative impact of Jehovah's-Witness.net on your life.

0 - no downside as long as one learns to avoid the posts of the obvious nutcases and fundie rednecks.

3. When you are in close proximity to Jehovah's Witnesses what actual, palpable emotion do you feel?

Sympathy, frustration because I know that there is no point in even trying to discuss anything rationally, sadness at wasted lives.

4.On a scale from 1-10 (10 being Absolute confidence) how confident are you that the Bible is an actual source of Divine Truth?

0.

5.Current active believing Jehovah's Witnesses, if approached the right way, under ideal conditions can be convinced to question their own beliefs.

True or False? (Remember, this is YOUR opinion.)

n/a

6.Which best describes how you feel about youor current position on religious matters?

A. I am depressed, confused, ambivalent and afraid

B. I am actively investigating as objectively as possible.

C. I don't think anybody has any supernatural revelation. It is all self-delusion.

D. I have mixed-feelings. Some days I believe. Some days I don't. I'm actively praying.

C

7.Name three writers who have done the most to get your attention and cause you to question IF you are right. (Any authors)

Hugh Schonfield

Authors of the NT

Richard Dawkins

8.What is your greatest personal fear?

I don't have any fears I can think of

9.What is your greatest person source of Joy?

My son, my daughter, my grandaughters (2.5 and 2 months) and my pending grandson (- 9 weeks)

10.If you could wave a magic wand and go back to any year of your life, any age, any place, any time---what would it be and why?

Impossible to specify one, but all involve girls/women. Surprisingly, (my) youth is not necessarily a factor.

Special optional bonus question: What Topics are you sick of? What topics would your like to see covered more?

I find all topics of some interest - even the nutcase ones because it shows what out there.

34

I would like your opinion on Bertrand Russell's comment

by Terry in

could we discuss our reaction to bertrand russell's quote below?.

if i were asked to prove that zeus and poseidon and hera and the rest of the olympians do not exist, i should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments.

an agnostic may think the christian god as improbable as the olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists.. .

Joe Grundy

Knowsnothing: While WTBTS may now accept that 'life came about millions of years ago', the few publications I have seen recently still say that Adam was created 6,000 or so years ago. They don't trumpet it for obvious reasons.

Fudging about with the length of days etc. seems a bit dishonest to me. As far as I'm concerned anyone can believe what they like as long as it doesn't affect other people, but it seems to me that if they claim to have the 'unchanging and eternal truth' they should stick to it or admit they were wrong. 'New light' is just a weaselly cop-out IMHO. A core tenet of science is the acceptance that no-one knows it all and that there must always be an acceptance that a currently accepted hypothesis may be shown to be wrong and thus discarded. Seems more honest to me.

The Richard Dawkins Foundation site has a lot of very reliable stuff from expert sources and is worth a look.

Fresh Prince: As I understand it the claims to 'virgin birth' were far more common-place than many modern christians understand. They think it is unique to their religion but history shows the truth to be very different. It seems to have been a fairly common feature claimed for Egyptian, Greek and Roman gods, amongst others, and some writers have suggested that Saul/Paul included it in his view of the new religion to endow it with some 'credibility' to potential converts at that time.

27

Awake!: Sometimes You Just Have To Pick Your Jaw Up Off The Floor

by metatron in

jw
friends

ah, deception must be so-o-o-o-o-o- easy when you can deal with people who have no critical thinking skills.. an amazing example?

the past november awake magazine !

the cover asks, "is belief in a creator reasonable?".

Joe Grundy

Metatron:

Please! I am in suspense here! What conclusion did Awake! come to?

I am assuming that because it used the word 'reasonable' it has examined the unbiased evidence and concluded that the WTBTS teachings were wrong, that creation is just a myth, and that the world really is older than 6,000 years.

Should I hold my breath?

34

I would like your opinion on Bertrand Russell's comment

by Terry in

could we discuss our reaction to bertrand russell's quote below?.

if i were asked to prove that zeus and poseidon and hera and the rest of the olympians do not exist, i should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments.

an agnostic may think the christian god as improbable as the olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists.. .

Joe Grundy

Knowsnothing:

The flood? That falls at the 'plausability' stage I would say, without going into all the evidence which is out there. Less than 6,000 years ago the world population was reduced to 8 people in the Middle East?

As in the OP, those making the claim that gods exist are required to prove it (at least to those of us that require proof). Those who wish to believe will continue to do so regardless of what evidence is or is not available. Indeed, to some believers the more irrational their beliefs the greater their 'faith' and thus the 'stronger' they are.

Some, many, most, rational people would conclude that the 'creation' myth has been effectively disproved, that the 'creation' debate is over. But when we discuss religion 'rationality' is not frequently a recognised factor.

34

I would like your opinion on Bertrand Russell's comment

by Terry in

could we discuss our reaction to bertrand russell's quote below?.

if i were asked to prove that zeus and poseidon and hera and the rest of the olympians do not exist, i should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments.

an agnostic may think the christian god as improbable as the olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists.. .

Joe Grundy

Knows nothing:

In this context, why do you believe that there is a difference between the 'gods'?

34

I would like your opinion on Bertrand Russell's comment

by Terry in

could we discuss our reaction to bertrand russell's quote below?.

if i were asked to prove that zeus and poseidon and hera and the rest of the olympians do not exist, i should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments.

an agnostic may think the christian god as improbable as the olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists.. .

Joe Grundy

TD:

Isn't that the point? 'Thinking' Christians have to change and adapt their beliefs to keep them plausible and in line with accepted knowledge or the more 'unthinking' ones just shut their eyes and cling on blindly.

Change and adaptation or 'new light' in JW parlance go against the 'unchanging' nature of the god they profess.

34

I would like your opinion on Bertrand Russell's comment

by Terry in

could we discuss our reaction to bertrand russell's quote below?.

if i were asked to prove that zeus and poseidon and hera and the rest of the olympians do not exist, i should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments.

an agnostic may think the christian god as improbable as the olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists.. .

Joe Grundy

TD: thanks for that. I stand corrected.

34

I would like your opinion on Bertrand Russell's comment

by Terry in

could we discuss our reaction to bertrand russell's quote below?.

if i were asked to prove that zeus and poseidon and hera and the rest of the olympians do not exist, i should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments.

an agnostic may think the christian god as improbable as the olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists.. .

Joe Grundy

I really don't think that plausibility is a stumbling block to religious fundamentalists. They seem to have an ability to 'shut off' the questioning and reasoning part of their mind when it comes to their faith, to compartmentalise it, to resist the questions let alone seek to answer them.

My grandfather was a coal miner, a very tough man. In his younger days he was a bare-knuckle boxer and was a local champion. When he was 'converted' (I believe during one of the religious 'revivals' in the Welsh valleys) he became absolutely committed. He and a few friends built (literally) the gospel hall in their village (we knew it as the 'tin tabernacle' - but not in his hearing!). He believed the bible completely and literally. If thr bible had said that Jonah swallowed a whale, he would have believed that unquestioningly.

It's an interesting point about Galileo (could we equate it to the reception of Darwin's ideas later?). If you ask a 'fundie' about that issue today he'll perhaps find some biblical verse somewhere to 'show' that God said the Earth went round the Sun and if he's a fundie protestant he'll point out that RCs aren't really 'Christians' anyway.

The discussions about man's predisposition to religious or supernatural belief cite societal peer pressure as a very significant factor.

Your comment about the Puritans reminded me of the old quote (can't attribute it, sorry) which said that the Puritans left Britain in search of greater religious freedom - the freedom to persecute each other more than they had previously been allowed to do.

As for the Antipodes - which was the largest island in the world before Australia was discovered?

Australia.

Cheers